#27 Ken Shamrock | The Untold Story of WWE & MMA’s Original Legend

ended up hanging out with the wrong crowd and was behind 7-Eleven. Got into a scrap with the a bunch of other kids. And again, this at 10 years old, got stabbed. I didn't have a home. Obviously, I was in a group home. I got adopted. When someone asks you, hey, I want you to do a thousand squats. One, one person's going to go laughing. You go, man, that's can't do that. Or the other person is immediately is going to start thinking about a solution cuz how does it work? How am I going to do it? If you're not willing to go this hard, whereas somebody pushing you past what your normal limitations are, then how do you expect to get to the level you want to get to to make a living at it? Because that's what you're going to have to do to get there. I will say that in my career, I mean, I that was focus and determination, desire, and nothing was going to get in the way of me succeeding. Are you a man of faith? I am. Yes. Yes. What is your thought process? The guy standing across from me is taking food off my table. He's taking clothes off my kids' back. I said, "Taking away my opportunity to be relevant, to be successful. I'm going to hurt him. I'm going to destroy him." He just looked at me all like I was like, "Whoa, I don't know if I can fix you." So he looks at me. He goes, "Well, see that's a sin." It's like I I have this gift and in my heart, in my mind, I knew that it wasn't wrong. It was God-given. I There's no way I could be this way. It was a gift. You can't be wrong. Like, it just can't be wrong. If you're going to be that guy, you're going to be him. Money isn't relevant. Being good at something and not being tested isn't good for you. How are you going on? The show must go on. In this episode, we get to speak with an absolute legend. If you follow combat sports at all, you already know him. He's helped shaped modern MMA. He's in the UFC Hall of Fame. and he's even a champion in professional wrestling. Ken Shamrock pretty much has seen and done everything you can do in the fight world. He got a start back in Pancra in Japan when MMA was still trying to figure out what it really was. And he tells some incredible stories in this one like behind the scene moments with The Rock, Brett Hart. He was even there during the Owen Hart tragedy when Owen Hart fell from the rafter. And I remember being a kid watching the pay-per-view and the screen goes black for a few minutes and that's not normal. and Jerry Lawler comes on and he starts saying there's been an accident and that Owen Hart fell and Ken really reminded me of the confusion that resulted in the coming months and years where we didn't even know if it was real or not. and he talks on his side about being a friend of Owen Hart and being really good friends with Brett Hart and the pain that came along with being able to trying to be able to grieve the passing of your brother or your friend, but fans continue to bring up like is it real and they're they don't believe you and you know professional wrestling is is is all about you know kayfabe and switching sides and bait and switches. So, what a mind def to be in professional wrestling when a real tragedy happens. And he goes into that which is just so incredible. He also goes into the finances in professional sports and some of the mistakes he's made, things he wished he had known. And um you know, I can't believe we got a chance to talk to him. So, I'm grateful that we got to do that. And for those of you out there, if you haven't subscribed yet, we would really appreciate it. We just found out in our Spotify wrapped that we are in the top 2% of all brand new shows. So, I cannot believe that cuz we're looking at the views and you never know like is that good, is it bad, what's going to happen and so that was really encouraging, but it's all because of people like you and it's really spreading naturally. So, if you haven't subscribed yet, please do. It really does help us and we're going to keep getting really amazing guests. If you like interesting things and you like living out on the edge, we're going to try and keep doing that for you. Anyways, on to the show. This is the world's most dangerous man on the Austin and Matt podcast. Ken Shamrock, most dangerous man in the world. Thanks for uh letting us talk to you for a little while. Yeah, man. You say people say that. I'm like, who? That guy, that guy is definitely not not not here. He's not here right now. No. At this very moment, I feel safe, but I will be weary. Yeah. Being in the middle of a ring with you is not somewhere I ever wanted to be. Not even close. Well, in this setting, it feels very comfortable. Yeah. Right. It is. Yeah. Cool. Should we start out with a few questions? Few questions from the crowd we're gonna come with. That's right. Uh, Ken Shamrock, most dangerous man in the world. You have a fight coming up this Friday. Is it going to be Stone Cold Steve Austin or Jon Jones? Who do you choose to fight? Wow. Um, that's a that's a tricky one because if you're asking Ken Shamrock at, you know, 27 years old, it's gonna be Jon Jones. But if you're asking Kin Shamrock at 47 years old, it's gonna be Stone Cold Steve Austin. Cuz cuz I'm telling you, man, there is nothing better than getting in a pro wrestling ring with someone like Stone Cold and being able to put on the matches that that he was what he was doing at the time was just unbelievable. The crowd noise and the pop that he would get, man, it was just unbelievable. So, it's not like taking anything any one of those guys. It's just that type of of of type of entertainment uh that you're able to be involved with. And I was very fortunate to be with involved in both of them. and being at the peak in my life uh at 27 years old and and 30 years old to be able to do what I did in the MMA world, the mixed martial arts, UFC to do that and then have such success and then being able to go over into the world of wrestling and work with guys like Stone Cold, Steve Austin, and be able to experience the impact that they were a able to have on the fans was just incredible. Yeah. Yeah. You're a legend. Yeah. Absolute legend. Hold up. Let me check my pulse. I am still alive. That's right. That's right. The legend lives on. That's right. Yes. All right, Ken Shamrock, you have a fight coming up this Friday and you get to pick your opponent. Do you pick Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee? Wow, that's tough, man. That That's a That one's a hard because they're both obviously in the same discipline. They were both uh in the same business. the entertainment business. Um, but they both practiced um, martial arts. Like they were both good. Um, I'm not sure about Bruce Lee as much. I've just heard. But I know with Chuck Chuck actually competed uh, in in competitions and I'm I I don't know a whole lot about what Bruce Lee did, but I know his movies were incredible, his speed was incredible, and just what we were able to see on TV was incredible. So, I would probably say Chuck Norris just because I know more about him. Yeah. Uh, and know that he did he did compete in tournaments and for real like I saw it. Um, so, but Bruce Lee, I've heard a lot about him and obviously, you know, his his his legend status still carries on today. So, um, both those guys are really incredible, but it would have to be Chuck Norris. I got to ask you that Chuck Norris has this lore about him, all these jokes and you know, did was he known at the time you were entering the UFC when you when the UFC was starting? Was Chuck Norris a a thing that was mentioned? Absolutely. I mean, um, Chuck is one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet, you know? I mean, just a really good guy. I don't know him well, but um I have I've definitely been around people that do know him and I've been around him. Uh and the way that he treats people and his fan base is incredible. He's just a really good guy. Oh, that's cool. Yeah. All right, Ken Shamrock, you're in a back alleyway and there's one man in the alleyway and he's in a total craze. He's just gone totally psychotic and he can't control himself and he's going to attack you and you're going to have to defend yourself. You get to pick who that man is. Is it Joe Rogan or Jerry the King Lawler? Neither. I like both those guys. But I will tell you this, uh, if I if I was forced to choose one, I'd choose the one that couldn't hurt me the the most, and that would definitely be Lawler. That's very good. Good choice. Yeah. Yeah. No spinning back kicks coming at you. Well, spinning back kicks, but just the way that Rogan talks, man. Forget about it. Don't get him on your bad side. That's right. Yeah, that's right. It'll also kill you in the ratings. Forget about it, dude. Forget about being tough. That one will hurt worse. Yeah, that's right. He's got that nice kick. Oh, yeah. What else we got? Okay, let's do let's do a few more of these. Um, you know, always from the crowd is good. Okay, so you you've got a fight coming up this Friday. Ken Shamrock, most dangerous man in the world. It's going to be Tito Ortiz or Hoist Gracie. It's got to be Tito. Yeah, especially if we're the same age. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gotta be. Yeah. Hoist was Hoist was amazing. Um I still don't think that the Gracies get enough credit for what they were able to bring to the United States for us all to be able to enjoy now. So, um much respect to him. But uh yeah, Tito is one I've always thought like he's just a 10 years or just even 10 years younger. Uh I just think I I think the world of Tito I think at that time pound-for-pound he was the best fighter in the world and I just met him at at the wrong time in you know in my career because I truly believe that could have been a awesome rivalry. Totally. Yeah. time. Yeah. All right. I have a question from the crowd. Who would you rather face in a one-on-one basketball game, the Undertaker or Kane? Um, I would probably say um the Undertaker because I think Kane is bigger, isn't he? He's a little bit bigger. Yeah. He's like an inch tall. I think he's a little more evil, too. So, yeah. I go with the nice guy. Yeah. If if you look back on all the pro wrestlers, who who do you think came across as the most evil? Who tried to make evil their persona and really like nailed it? Yeah, that one I can't answer because I didn't really, you know, pay close enough attention, but I would I would, you know, if if the only thing that sticks in my head is Kane, right? I mean, uh just the way that he would come out, he wouldn't talk. He's a big massive man and he moved well. So, I would say that's the one that sticks in mind. Now, there might have been others that were better, but that's the one that actually sticks in my mind. Yeah. Yeah. If you had to lift someone up in the ring, who is the most difficult to grab and and get up in into the air? Uh, well, I would say um I don't the ones I don't know uh because I've never tried it would be like big big uh um oh, a big show. The big show. Um you know, just a big man uh you know, Andre the Giant, guys like that. just don't even try, right? Um but I would say guys that I had actually done it um but because I was so strong I really didn't I mean I just just did it but I could feel the weight um was Van Vader uh when I was able to work with him. Um just a massive man but more than that people look at him and they just see this big guy but he was solid. Like even though he had that round figure and he was big like that he was he was solid. Yeah. So, I mean, he actually weighed more than he even though he looked heavy, but he weighed even more than that. Wow. Because I think he had a lot of muscle under there. Real dense. Dense. Yeah. All right. I'm gonna ask this one. Yeah. Ken Shamrock, most dangerous man in the world. You have a fight coming up on Friday night and you get to pick your opponent. Is it Vince McMahon or Dana White? H. Wow. That's that's hard because I don't look at it like that. Yeah. Like how do I look at doing that to my people that I work for? Like I don't Yeah, it's just I don't think I could pick one. Who would you rather play in a basketball match? Uh I would probably say the easier one is Vince. Yeah, we're going. I'll take the older guy. All right. Hey guys, Matt here. I wanted to take a moment to say thank you for watching the Austin and Matt podcast. We just got our Spotify wrapped for creators back and we found out that we are in the top 2% for all brand new shows and I was floored when I saw that. Like you never know. I I love all the people that we've been talking to, but there's so many highs and lows that it's very hard to know how to benchmark yourself. And so to have Spotify kind of give us that objective data was just very encouraging. And you know, I love talking about spirituality and aliens and psychedelics and AI and economics and brain organoids for compute, but you never know if other people enjoy hearing about it. So, it was very encouraging to see that statistic. We also found out that we're in the top 5% for all YouTube channels. And so, you know, we're not even a year into this yet. So, if you haven't subscribed yet, please consider subscribing. It really helps organically, especially at our stage, to let let the algorithm know that you enjoy it. Um, but only listen if you like it. Like if we don't have good conversations, don't listen to it. Um, it's up to us to to maintain that level of interest. So, I'm going to keep chasing curiosity. Austin's going to keep chasing curiosity. And if you want to come along with us for the ride, let's go. We got a a lot of really cool ideas for 2026. Some new things that we don't think anybody's ever done. And we got some really cool guests coming. So, thank you again. I hope you have a merry Christmas and we'll see you on the next show. All right. Roger that. Cool. I think we should go into the Maxes. Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay. So, I remember watching you when I was 10, 11, and 12 when I was a wrestler and uh in the early days of the UFC and you in my brain, what always sticks out is the size of your back and shoulders and you just had like this V of lats and it was really Greek proportions of Greek proportions. And I was always wondering what was your max uh what was the max amount of pull-ups you've ever done? Oh, well, this is when I was in the Marine Corps boot camp. Um, there was a 30-se secondond uh pull-up thing and um I believe it was 42 I I don't remember what it was, but it was I remember I remember it being the most at that time. In 30 seconds. 30 seconds. Could you have kept going? Yes. So, the time stopped you? Yes. Yeah. Did you ever go beyond that? Do you think you ever did more than 42 pull-ups in one go? Um, I mean, in one day, I'm almost sure. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I was strong. Like I said, I was really I mean I was doing 1,000 squats, 500 squats, you know, 100 push-ups and that easy. Like that's not struggling, right? Um, my bench press was 605. Okay. So, I was really strong. I mean, in fact, in high school, I know it doesn't seem like much after the 605 thing, but I weighed 160 lbs and I benched 320. Wow. In high school um at 17. So I was always had this natural strength about me. Um so I was able to do uh quite a lot especially with with my body frame whereas I had long arms. Even though I had thick chest, thick body, my arms were long. So it's not like most bench press guys where they go down there and it's like you know three inches. Yeah. It was harder to have long. It was a lot more to go. So I was so I was gifted being strong. I could squat a whole lot. How much could you squat? I mean, I've had a thousand pounds, not on a bar, but on a leg press, you know, on a squat, probably I would say 750 uh at one time, but I probably could have done more. Um, I was, like I said, I was just freakishly strong. You were. And did you What was the weight regimen back then? Was it more of like low reps, high weight, high reps, low weight? Well, back then I was I was I was looking for the power because I was already getting cardio. Yeah. Right. So, um, for me it was getting stronger. Um obviously this was you know you're talking in ' 89 90 91 things changed uh with all these different ways of training you know which is smarter right um because of the explosiveness in the actual fights now where is that you got to be in tremendous shape to be able to explode like that for five minutes and then rest for a minute and then go do it again. old. Um, I changed my program completely to where we're doing 20 30 reps on on all the stuff because you didn't in the way I was built, I had the round muscle full of water. Um, uh, so going into a fight that could cause you to blow up. So I had to change the way uh, halfway through my career on how I was training because strength was really working for me in the beginning because there wasn't a whole lot of technique. But as soon as that technique started to get really good, it became a problem for me to and people were lasting longer. So then I had to change my regimen to where the muscles that I had that were, you know, the round kind of muscles would be able to last that long and not blow up and get numb. Did you have any recovery practices like ice baths or what kind of stretching did you do? I did the I I forget what it's called, but I used to go into this box and then they would pressurize it. No, it was coldness. Oh. And they would it would literally bring it down to freezing or whatever it was temperatures and you'd sit in there and it would just freeze your body. And uh I used to do that quite a bit and it was good for inflammation and and being able to help you recover quicker. And the now you're doing bare knuckle boxing and you're start you're starting a bare knuckle boxing league, right? What's Yeah, this we're in this ring right now. It says we have the Lion's Den returns on all four corners. Yeah, baby. What's going on? What are we What's going on here? Lion's Den is returning. Yeah, you heard it right. We're going to be doing a show. It's on ASSE and uh we're bringing back the old school way of training in the Lion's Den. Um, I think it's just, you know, the way that I used to, you know, bring fighters in where we do tryyouts. Um, they had to go through an 8 hour grueling, uh, test. And it had nothing to do with whether or not they were great fighters. It had to do with mental toughness and mental strength. I mean, that's all I wanted to know. I didn't want to know anything else because if they passed it, I knew for a fact that I could teach them the techniques, that I could teach them uh the skills to win. But the one thing that you can't really even though I think you can push the lines of that mental toughness that they already have. But if they don't have that where they're not willing mentally or not willing to put them in tough situations. For instance, you get a guy coming in and he comes in and he's strong and he's athletic, he's in good shape and it's natural and he's going in there and he's able to beat everybody just naturally. Well, then you bring that guy in without ever having to test his mental toughness. You bring him in and you start training him. You're working with him and you're doing the regular training and he's winning all his fights. And so, he gets to a point to where now all of a sudden he's a contender. And now all the fights now are with everybody that had natural ability. Mhm. But the difference is those ones that had natural ability had people that put them in tough situations, which like for instance putting him in the ring and having them go with a guy uh every one minute you got a fresh guy coming in on you for 10 minutes or making them run and sprint or, you know, do 500 squats is what we did. And just burn their legs out, making them do 200 push-ups, burning their upper body. What's that? 500 squats. 500 squats. Body weight in a row. in a row. Zero 500. Don't stop. That's right. I mean, obviously they're gonna get tired and stop for a minute and you get on them and they go again. Right. So, you put them in that point and then after you get done working them out like that for seven, six, seven hours and then you tell them in the go and fight a fresh guy, a pro. And that pro beats them up in the MMA just constantly boom boom boom and they fall down and they get back up and boom boom fall. At what point does a guy quit? when do you break them? Right? So, I'm putting these guys in a position that they've never been in before to be able to understand what their mental toughness is and help them understand what it is and if they do have that because there's a lot of people and I even guys that can fight that I have seen and you guys have seen it too where you see a guy go in there and he doesn't show up. He goes in there and you're like where where was that guy I saw there? is because he at some point every one of those guys who have that ability naturally are going to get in there with somebody that has the same kind of blessing, but they put the work in. And that's where you see the fall off. That's what I don't want to have happen. When we bring people in, I want to test them from day one because if I know that they've got the ability to stick it out and they've got the mental toughness to do it, I can train them. What do you attribute your mental toughness towards? Because you were well known for cardio in the octagon and obviously it was due to training, but that seems to be due to your mental toughness. So, how how do you where did you find your mental toughness and how where do you where do you credit that? Yeah, I would say the way that um uh my life first started, I mean, I came up uh I didn't have a home obviously. I was in a group home. I got adopted. I think most people know that. Uh but I started out at 10 years old and um you know prior to that uh it was rough. Um I was running around on the street quite a bit. Even at the even under the age of 10, I was still running around and doing things I shouldn't have been doing. Had really no parents around to raise me. At 10 years old, I ran away. I was living in a car. Um end up getting into some scraps and fights. Um ripping off stores, ripping people off. uh just making a living and ended up hanging out with the wrong crowd. Was behind 7-Eleven, got into a scrap with the a bunch of other kids. And again, this at 10 years old, got stabbed. Do you remember what the scrap was about? No. No. Cuz it was You didn't have to have a scrap in those days, right? It was just like somebody walked into your area. You know what's going off. What are you doing? That's it. That's all there's. You're looking for it, right? You're not looking for for just to be sitting around and, you know, hang out with one of It's always You're looking for trouble. and we found it. And uh one thing led to another and I had a a knife stuck in my arm. A guy tried to stab me and he was going for my neck. I put my arm up and stuck me with the uh this this lock blade stuck me in the arm and and uh once everybody realized what had happened, everybody took off. And so I remember walking around to the front of the store and going in and I was kind of dizzy at this time cuz blood was coming out. And I remember I said, "Hey, I think I got stabbed." And I there's a knife in your arm. I pulled my arm pulled the knife out of my arm and then blood just spurted out and then I don't end up in a hospital. And so it just kind of gives you an idea of what kind of kid I was at a young age and some of this my surroundings and what I was growing up under, right? I don't think that me and and my spirit and the my person that I am deep down was that way. Um, I believe that that's just the circumstances in which I was living in and it was a way for me to survive and I just went with the flow. And so ending up uh in in the hospital and and then obviously I woke up handcuffed to the hospital bed um I started my journey down uh the placement uh juvenile placement and um in into different group homes and failed a lot of those uh homes you go into you just I just think back now as how in the world they ever get licensed? I mean, these people were horrible. And uh so you run away from there and you know, you get you get caught and you get locked up again. And then I ended up at Shamrock Boy Home at 13 years old after going through three years of constant in and out of different homes and stuff and failures. And my mindset was pretty much survival. Like I did what I I did and the things I did because I needed to survive. and my my thought process of of how I was surviving. And um so I ended up there and the it that was incredible because all the other homes I went to was like you talked earlier about the the the smell of piss and holes in the wall and everything is dirty and it just grungy and you just you're just nasty. To us it was normal though. I walked into it. It was a bed, right? It was people I kind of related to the place kind of the home I kind of grew up. It was no no big deal. It was the same same. Um but you walk into those places and you realize man this place is just especially now you look at wow how would they ever get licensed? But um I end up sh my boy's home and um that was where I walked in and I remember looking at the home when we pulled up cuz I was with two other kids from Napa and I looked at the house and they pulled into it and I was like man this like do we we lost like cuz this was in a country place we were in from Napa and now also we're in the mountains in Susanville. And uh he's pulling into this place got a big old flag pole. It's got this Corvette in the front yard. It's got this nice uh uh vehicle. It's actually a Cadillac and there's some vans and stuff and it's got this big huge mansion. I mean it it was a mansion and we're like hey something's like this is not right. Right. He said no this is it. And I was like all of a sudden and most people they're thinking boy you got to made my mind I was like I don't belong here. Like I was afraid of it. I was like that's expectation. I didn't know that right. I didn't Yeah. I couldn't put that as a kid. But I'm looking at him going, "Yeah, that's I can't do that." Like, "I don't belong here." Um, so we were walking up and there's a big oak door and my dad answers the door and he I mean, he owned the home. Like he had kids in there. There was 18 boys there and I started to learn then, right? It was it went real quickly. Um, that's nice to have so many other boys around because it helps you assimilate a little bit more. It's like you kind of just start picking up context clues of even just where does my stuff go, when is dinner, when is even just the normal daytoday every second after every minute after every hour. At least that helps you kind of dive in. Well, what it does though is because like I said, when you first walk in, which was I was I was I was getting to that was when you walk in and you see this house and this mansion, you're uncomfortable. Like you just realize I don't I don't know how to talk to these people. Then you see all those kids and I know a lot of them cuz they're from Napa and I'm like they're all running around and playing and so all the now you're like all right like I guess they're doing good like there's a connection here right there's a pool table there's video games I kid you not this is like it was unbelievable and there's big um piano white grand piano uh uh my mom now uh that played the piano and sang And um walking into the into the the the hallway, there's a 18 ft oak table with big cast iron chairs and pewtor goblets and puter plates, 18 seats. And then there was a little small table on the side for the counselors, which I didn't know at the time, but all that stuff's in there. And I'm like like what is this? like and he he brings us to this bar where there's a bar there and it's behind it there's like sodas and different things and there's nuts and there's M&M's and there's different things and I'm just like what? So I don't want to go through the whole story but to make the long story short is here I was walking into this thing. I'd already gone through all these things as a kid and now I'm into a situation where things could change for me. But if it wasn't for Bob Shamrock and and him to truly understand going to these other homes, they had no clue. But he understood that there had to be a reason for these h things happening to us, the kids. like and how do you address that rather than just having them do their time and sending them back into the same situation? And he was the only one that I have ever, not ever, but I would say that through my lifetime that got it and understood what it was for these kids to be able have to change. And it was environment and it was literally helping them understand that now you have to take your own life in your own hands because you're not going to be able to go back to that situation. Even though you may love your mom and dad, which I didn't have one, but a lot of those kids did, but they can't go back there because they got the same friends and the same environment and all the same problems. You have to take your life in your own hands and build your own life wherever you want to build. It could be here when you get out, you go get a job, start working, build your life. Um, and so it helped me understand that the paradox between building your own life, but also having someone give you a life that you didn't pick. There's a paradox there. Right. Right. And there's anger. Yeah, the the anger um and then that's part of um taking control of your own life and understanding what it is you have to do. And um as kids, we don't know that. So, you got to have somebody that knows how to find the the things that are going to help you heal. It's talking for one, always communication, always talking and allowing people at their own time to be able to express themselves and to be able to talk about things. And it's got to be on their own time, right? You can't force that. And the only way that happens is by just opening the door for communication. Did they have a lot of I mean, this is in the 70s, right? No, this is um so 79 80 81 uh 82 I graduated. Yeah. Okay. I mean, you know, I feel like childhood development and all of these things we've learned a lot in the last 30, 40 years. And for them, you're saying they had an open environment with where communication was welcome and expressing yourself was welcome. That feels actually very different and unique in 1980 that maybe a lot of households weren't having if you got to have that experience. Well, first of all, uh, the m, and again, I'm not saying all them because there are good ones out there, but the majority of them don't want to hear, don't want to know, don't care. Um, because they're most of them are are messed up themselves, the ones that were running the homes, they they have their own issues, right? They don't want to hear anybody else's. They're there just to do a job. And and we've come a long ways obviously uh in the group home things. Now, this is It's a long ways and there's a lot more um awareness of of how to deal with those things. But my dad was way ahead of the curve when it came to that because it was he would force communication. Not force you to talk about your problems, but force communication by engaging with you constantly about just anything. But he also understood in knowing what type of kid you were by reading your file and where you came from and the and the things that you went through. And then he would literally do things to um help you express yourself. For instance, whether you're an artist or uh somebody that was more introvert, I was more outward, physical, angry, frustrated. So for me, it was, you know, football, wrestling. Uh he got me into that. He said, "You want to play football?" And I was like, "Yeah, sure." Why not? Well, and I experienced that and I didn't know it at the time, but I excelled because I wanted to hit people. Like, I didn't care. Like, I just wanted to I didn't care if the ball was going that way. If guy was there, I'm hitting him. Like, it didn't matter to me. I just wanted that contact. And but but the real reason is is because I needed that frustration and that hate and I needed it to go somewhere. And so, I I to I chose sports. There's a lot of other people like they're more introvert and that can't can't relate to what I do. They think it's horrible, right? Because they're more introvert and they're they're more loving and caring and but they're the ones that are cutting themselves and doing drugs and doing all that stuff because they can't express themselves. So, I remember my mom one time and I I watched it happen where there was this kid and he was at school and he drew this picture and he had all these heads cut off and a guy standing on top of the bodies and blood was pouring out of the heads and great artist like it was very good and uh he got he got suspended like he got kicked out of school, right? And it was good. So, in his mind he's not he he's he's he's expressing himself, right? Um, but at the same time there was talent there and nobody noticed it. Like they weren't looking at what that talent was, not the actual picture itself, but what it the the the actual clarity of how he drew it. And I remember my mom saw that and she said it was just she said, you know, the the the the technique in that drawing is I don't remember the exact word she used, but that it's it's very good. It's like he's like like he's thinking she's trying to play him because we all we all know the [ __ ] right? We all know when it's coming. So, but it wasn't because she was like that's really good. And then I remember her engaging with him in that and allowing him. She said even though we had to deal with this stuff at the school, um she allowed him. He says, "I will let you draw anything that you want for a half hour, but for the other half hour, I want you to do your work, do your homework, do your grades, make sure you keep things going, and then you can have your moments to draw what" Which was what she was doing was giving him a place to release his inner thoughts on the paper, right? and without him knowing that he's like she's she's actually trying to help you and he's like he can't do it anywhere else and she's allowing him to draw whatever you want and he drew some really bad stuff to try to shock her. It didn't work. She knew what he was doing. And so after a while he started um engaging and started talking because now he he felt like she was in his circle, right? She was safe. Yeah. But then she once she got to that point and we had built this new addition, we called it the bunk house, built a new addition onto the house where we were adding eight more beds. And so they were going out there and they were getting ready to build it. And my mom said, she came up, she goes, "Um, do you want to um draw our addition onto the house?" And he's like, he goes, "Yeah, we're going to put it out here. We want to add more beds. We want to put it on the side here. Can you draw? You think you can draw something?" He goes, "Yeah." So he gets down there and he draws this this addition to the bunk house and it was I mean again like I said the kid had talent right and he drew it man it was awesome but her whole point was like that's good. She says so how do you get that? And he's like what do you mean? Well like if you were to build it how how do you get there? Like you drew the picture but how do you actually build it? I don't know. It's like how big is it? What's the square footage? He's like, "I don't know." He goes, "You want to know? You want to learn?" He goes, "Sure." Like, you know, I mean, like, yeah. So, she want you to go over here and I want you to kind of sit with this guy who is actually drawing all you know how those specs. I don't even know that stuff. Well, your measurements and your space and all that other stuff that goes with it. He literally joined in on that and and and I I I don't know what he's doing now, but at least uh I think it was probably 10 or 15 years ago. um where um I believe that he reached out and that he's literally doing exactly what those guys were doing. Like I think he went to architect like I don't know the terminology of it and all that but he literally went out and started doing that because he the it's kind of like the talent that I had when I was on the street. I was beating people up. I wasn't getting paid for it, right? I had talent. I to play football. I went and played college. Got a chance to go to play pro. I mean all that stuff. I had that, right? But I was using it in the wrong way. All I needed was someone to show me how to use it and how to vent the anger and frustration I had at the world into something positive. And that was the same thing for this kid, but he was completely different than me. Whereas he wasn't angry and violent like that, but he was angry and in his soul he was violent and he needed to express that like I did physically. He could do it architecturally. So, I want to go back to this idea of the grit because I think some people have been through similar situations that you've been in and they didn't have that grit. And so, there must be something else inside of you. Maybe it was the anger. Do you think it was the anger that actually that moment, right? We've all been there if you've been an athlete or whatever where you get to the point of you want to quit and something in you says no. What is it? Is it innate? Is it learned? What do you think that happened inside of you when you analyzed this grit that got you to where you got to? Yeah, I think that's that that that's hard to determine. I I think with with anyone. I don't and again I I I don't want to because I I I don't know the answer to that because I can't say that it's something that's just built into you. I don't know that for sure. Yeah. Right. But but I do believe that it was there because every time that I got to a point I mean I went, you know, 46 minutes with Faki over in Japan. Yeah. Right. and you can just bite your teeth and keep going. I just I shut it off. I don't know what that is, but at some point you just it's like I don't I don't acknowledge time. Like it's not something I'm acknowledging. The only thing I acknowledge is trying to finish what I started. Like I'm in there and I'm there to do something and I can't get it done and and I've got to keep trying to get it done and I'm not gonna think about whether I can or can't. And I I say this um to people to try to help them understand when they're going into something. So there's two kinds and there's more than that, but in this situation, there's two kinds of people, right? When someone asks you, "Hey, I want you to do a thousand squats." First thing that comes to mind to everyone that is is there, there's two things. One, one person's going to go laugh at you and go, "Oh man, that's can't do that." or the other person is immediately is going to start thinking about a solution because how does it work? How am I going to do it? Like it's not whether or not it's impossible, but how do I get how do I do that? Like let me analyze this for a minute so I can figure out how I'm going to do it as opposed to someone saying immediately there's a wall up. It can't happen and I'm the other where it's like someone says something and that depends on what it is because some things I'll say I'm not doing that. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, but there are some things when someone says that uh I'll find a way. Something I've always wondered for a fighter, you know the adage like sometimes you work, it's better to work smart than it is to work hard. What's the difference when you're becoming a fighter? Because it seems to me it's all hard work, but there's got to be a way to make the hard work into smarter hard work. What does that look like? I don't think that's I don't believe that. Smarter and harder. I don't think you separate the two. I I I just don't I do believe that you break it apart and it becomes a problem, right? Um but yeah, I I I think that you you've got to work hard. You you have to put And again, we just talked about it. Um you got to put yourself in uncomfortable situations in order for you to know what your limit is. If you don't know what your limit is and you find out in a fight, it may not be good for you, right? Um, I used to go into places because I, like I said, I did have natural ability and I would literally just be good and just go in there and start rolling. I remember the first time I did a try out, I I destroyed everybody in at Meeno's uh, wrestling school and those guys were already going over to Japan and and working with these guys and I beat them all up. And it wasn't until I went to Japan where they brought me in after Meleno said, "Hey, you know," and I got met met Sammy Sarinaka, who was the booker, brought me over there for a try out. And that was the first time. And that's how I came up with uh with what I do. I changed it a little bit because you get sued now. But when I went, they beat the the heck out of me. I mean, I I'd never never been there. Uh, but I went through four guys and each guy I went 20 to 30 minutes like and there was and I just got off a plane. They picked me up from the airport, drove straight to the dojo and put me told me to put my gear on. Now, that was on purpose. That's my That's where I get all of the stuff from is because being comfortable is easy, but being uncomfortable constantly to to be able to put yourself in that position over and over again makes you comfortable. Then you get comfortable. But you can't do it unless you put it put yourself in uncomfortable positions. Being good, being good at something and not being tested isn't good for you. You have to put yourself, especially in training, you don't want to find out in a competition or in a game. You want to do it in training. And that's the point for the Lion's Den stuff that we do. It isn't about how good you are. It isn't about, well, hey, maybe you are a great fighter right now, but that's not what I'm looking for in these in these types of events that we're doing, these training sessions. I'm looking for that mental toughness. Someone that will will be willing to learn either one not to quit or if they already have that learn to push that line even farther. So, this is an athlete kind of development program. And then if they pass, do they already have coaches and stuff? Are they training around? And then do they go back and keep going and kind of get the Shamrock seal of approval tough grit sort of thing or do they partner with you now? What's sort of the the outlook after this goes out? Well, there's opportunities and eventually it'll probably go down to where we'll end up managing, but this this first one, this trial one, we're not looking to take anybody away from anyone. Sure. Right. We want them to come here uh and have the freedom to have whoever they want to work with them. But what we want to do is be able to set the the agenda and um I guess the the culture of what we're doing so that when people come here, they understand this is a place to find out whether or not this is what you really want to do and not find out 5 years down the road when you get into that contending spot and you find out that you don't have what it takes or you didn't train to find out whether or not you had what it took. This is kind of like that boot camp or maybe hell week sort of moment where you find out if you can make it through. It's it's not exactly about technique. It's more about grit and heart for it's all about it's all about finding out where where that point is for you and then we want to be able to push it farther for bare knuckle boxing. What kind of conditioning if someone were out there thinking about getting into bare knuckle? It's a little different than MMA in in the sense that it's not quite as dynamic, but it's still going to be very explosive. What sorts of recommendations would you make for someone trying to get in? Well, I think with I don't care what you know what sport or event it is, you got to get people around you that are going to put you in the best position to succeed, right? Um there's I mean this is just is never going to change but you're always going to have people that are just going to be there for the moment. And um you know for an example um back in the day when we did the lions and triyouts you know I was the only thing in town right it was you could I get you in pancreas I get you in the UFC. People would go through these triyouts and they would just you know give everything they got to do it. And even then only 12 people passed in 10 years so it was that tough. Um nowadays you get it's money and numbers. It seems like money and it always does and it and it should but not in this sense. Whereas that you you grab people and you get them and you you um you work with them and then you put them out to fight but not really trying to train them to be able to go as far as they can. Right? you're there and then they're on their own to do that, right? So, that's what this is spo we're trying to do is to be able to give guys the opportunity to be able to put themselves in a position right off the bat to know if this is what they want to do. Because if if you're not willing to to go this hard, where is somebody pushing you past what your normal limitations are, then how do you expect to get to the level you want to get to to make a living at it? Because that's what you're going to have to do to get there. Wow. It seems like it seems to me your parents really instilled a lot of like good values. Just just some good like gritty values. What was your mom's name? Uh Dee. Dee. Yeah. Did you ever find out the motivation of why Bob and Dee uh opened a a home for boys? Uh yeah. I don't know if it was their motivation, but I think maybe it was one of them was that they couldn't get pregnant, right? So, I think that the nature of both of them was they were just people that wanted to Well, and he drove a bus um I think it was Anza, California. Um where he drove a bus for for kids uh school bus. Okay. Um, so he was always good with kids and felt like he could do something. They had a, which was crazy because they had a very successful horse ranch uh for Arabian horses and uh so uh they went from that to uh raising boys and it was 18 to 22 kids in their home at a time. That's a lot. And they were the and again um I can't you know obviously I'm just saying this but um they they were the most successful group home to the to my knowledge at that time they had an 80% success rate. That's just phenomenal unheard of because every kid that went there they weren't just a number. They weren't just a a a paycheck. They literally would read the files and ma and build a relationship with each kid. My mom was more of the, you know, you know, the introvert. She dealt with kids that were more musical or, you know, uh, more talented in that sense. Uh, and then my dad was more the physical, you know, and so it was really a great balance for the type of kids that were coming in there for them to be able to reach into them and be able to help them physically, mentally, be able to vent their frustrations and angers and thoughts into things that didn't get them in trouble. Well, what's supposed to get him in trouble, like drawing a picture and get suspended. like like okay I get it but maybe just talk to the kid. Don't go all wild on him and show the people this kid's sake he needs to be on Redlin. It's just like hey why would we just talk to him? Ah such interesting perspective. Um I have a question while you're in the WWF WWE. Um, I know that you and Brett Hart were pretty close or he helped kind of take you, he was sort of your one of your entry points in. I was always wondering backstage when you guys were traveling together or, you know, going to different events. Uh, who who do you think was like was everybody social? Was everybody hanging out? Was was everybody kind of their own island because they're all big superstars? like in your from from your experience of traveling around the world with and you were in you're in the mix, you're one of them, you know, what was the attitude like for all the wrestlers traveling around doing these shows and everything? I think it's it was no different than than going to work. You know, it was a job. It's it it really is. Um you're you're going there and you're in a work environment and you need to be able to work with everyone. Yeah. Right. So that you have to be able to at least try to understand who everyone is, have a at least an open communication with everyone. How do you do that? I think it's for me, uh, it was basically just going to them and saying, "Hey, how's it going, man? Appreciate you guys." Guys, eat lunch together. Like, no. What do you How do you There's no office building. like how do you have water cooler talk inside the WWE? It it's really in the locker room when you get there. You've got hours before the show goes off and so um there's opportunities where you one you can go eat but most of the time nobody's really sitting at tables and all talking. It's more like through hallways and you know sometimes going in and warming up or just sitting in in the chairs. There's opportunity all the time to be able to engage with people. Um and especially when you're actually working with them um or they're involved somehow uh with with your with your with your match. Yeah. Um so that's usually where where I tried to develop the the communication was whenever I would come around because you're always working with somebody different, especially when I came in. I was always going with someone different all the time. Never really ran a program except with a rock. So I always working with different people. So, I had a great opportunity to be able to open up a dialogue with these guys to be able to try to let them get to know me and me get to know them because wrestling you you really do have to trust one another. Oh, yeah. So, you you don't want to just not say you guys talk about your match and then you're you're you're apart. Um, so it was a really good chance to get to know. And the great thing about it is that I I don't know what what people were like outside of wrestling, but I know with me being in wrestling and being around that that world and being in the locker room, there was just a lot of really good people that would wanted to do the best job, just wanted to make sure they had a great match. When you were in the WWE, was there anybody who was kind of unanimously or was there any guys that were unanimously known as cordial and friendly? Everybody loved this guy, you know, like is there any of those guys that kind of the group kind of just Owen Hart. Owen. I was going to ask if you knew Owen. Yeah, Owen Hart. Oh my gosh. Just he's so easy to talk to. He's always messing around. He's fun to be around. He's just just a really easy guy. Okay. Um he's not intimidating, you know. He's he he he he has the personality that allows you to approach him. Like he's just so easy to approach. Um, so I would say him. Um, I would say probably the one that most people if you didn't know him would have a hard time getting to know him because just the way that he's not doing it on purpose, but he just has that that stone face and he doesn't smile a whole lot. And so a lot of people would just immediately I'll just walk this way. is Steve Blackman. Oh yeah. He just he's like and he's not a bad guy when you get to know him. I drove with I worked with him. He's a really good guy, but he just like the way he would just sit there. He didn't smile much and he didn't really talk a whole lot. So I think most people if you didn't know him, you were like, "Yeah, this guy don't look too friendly." Man, that's interesting. Were you around during the accident with Owen? Were you I was on deck. You were on deck. I remember I was watching the pay-per-view. Yeah. I remember when it cut off and it all went black and we didn't know what happened and it went black for like a minute or two and then it came on and Jerry Lawler said there was an accident and that was like so devastating. Dude, I don't even think people realize how long it took for people to believe it was real. I We didn't know. I We didn't know. I remember I'm like 13 or 14 and we've been watching the WWF for way too long as far way too early and we didn't know. We didn't know if it was real or I mean, you know, Jerry Lawler was as serious as he could be, but we're like, is this is this a fake out? Is this a We didn't know. It's hard. It's hard to convey when you're in the middle of an entertainment business that we've seen. Was it the same for some of the fighters for It was worse for us because everything's a everything's a work. Everything. And this was something nobody knew anything about. and then understanding how this was supposed to work. There's no way that happens. Like, there's just no way. There's just no way that doesn't happen. There's no way they're going to let somebody go up there and do what he did, do what he did. There's no way that can happen. Like, that just can't happen. So, in your mind, you know, you're like, "Okay, what's the Yeah. What what's happen?" And we I we saw it, right? We we saw it and still in our heads we're like, we can't we can't wrap our head around this. We saw him come out in the gurnie. It looked fake. I've seen a lot of fake. Yeah. And and because there wasn't blood there there there was nothing abnormal. He was just there. And you're like that. Yeah, this he's something's up here. And the way that it was handled made us think it wasn't real because how are you going on? The show must go on. It kept going. That was why we didn't think it was real. Like they kept they had the next match or whatever and it was like wait is this is this normal? like, "Hold up. You're telling us this, but you're doing this." Yeah. It just doesn't line up. It was months. Now, for us, it was sooner than that because we were inside and we realized, you know, very quickly that that that this wasn't a gimmick. But for fan base, even to this day, some people don't can't connect, right? Um, I personally personally think because the show went on that it it really took a lot longer for people to accept it. Absolutely. Because you're always waiting for the appearance, you know, which made it worse. Mhm. Um, so I just my heart just broke for the family because they've been in the business their whole life forever. And they're going even though they know because it's he's not home. They know, but even in their mind, they're like, "It's not real." Even though, you know, even if it happened and they weren't in wrestling, you still don't want to accept it, right? they have now they have an actual idea and world in which they can live in and not accept it because it's wrestling like yeah this is not real like so it it really did string it out for a long time before it even became real did questions of faith start to enter into conversations with you guys or are you a man of faith I am yes and so did that did that start to enter the conversation more people just talking about their faiths Mhm. Yeah. But I you have to be careful on that, right? Be because I think you can go ahead and pray and and you can express yourself in that way. But I think when you start moving there like that, I I I don't know what the hearts are. I don't know what what what close friends and family members are. So that was a hard that's hard to do. So that's why I think in that time you're just basically doing it on your own. There were people that did come together and prayed, right? But um yeah, that and that one was hard too because even in in the media or things like that, you you're kind of like don't want to cross lines. You you don't want to insult anybody uh because you don't know what their beliefs are. So I was very careful on that one. Uh although you know me personally praying for him and others praying for him was I I thought was great but like I said in that setting it's it's it's not about grandstanding and right showing that you're praying for it's it's a personal relationship that you have that you are or at that moment are dealing with with God yourself. Uh and so it doesn't matter what what everything else is going on. It's why I I said in that moment, it's they can do it. They can bring that to the public. But to us and people that are believers, that was between us and God. Like we don't need to try to force that on anybody else. Did you ever feel like when you were fighting that having a faith in God was sort of a superpower? What where do you how much energy you do you draw from faith when you're fighting? Well, I'll tell you that's a great question because I struggled at one point uh with that and it was because I wasn't necessarily called out but it was brought up um and I didn't know how to answer it and uh I remember a pastor talking about fighting, not necessarily what I was doing or boxing like that, but just fighting and and how that that was a sin. You know, you're not supposed to hurt your brothers and sisters. I was like, whoa, hold up. You don't mean physically, right? Hold on. What's going on here? It's like I had a I struggled with that and I remember um asking because I I do ministry and I do my motivational speaking and different things and remember asking a pastor uh one time because I was like I can't believe I've been given this gift only for it to not be accepted. And so I remember asking a pastor one time and I said man I this is me. It's like and he goes he goes well he said what is your what is your thought process like what do you what is it that you're thinking and I remember saying you know for me it's everything like this is this is how I'm going to be relevant says guy standing across from me is taking food off my table it's taking clothes off my kids' back I said taking away my opportunity to be relevant, to be successful. I'm going to hurt him. I'm going to destroy him. He just looked at me all empty. He's like, I like, whoa, I don't know if I can fix you. So, so he looks looks at me. He goes, "Well, see, that's a sin." And immediately I'm like, "Oh my gosh." What? He goes, "But if your mind and your thoughts would change," he says, "if if the way that you approach the fight was different." Oh my. Okay, that sounds pretty easy. Yeah. You want me to love the guy and punch you? He's like, "Yeah." He's like, he says, "How come you just don't focus on winning like or focus on what whatever it is that you do? Why does it have to be focused on him?" And I was like, I thought to myself, he says, "You can't hate somebody that much. You can't let your heart and your mind go there where you're thinking things like that because sooner or later you'll become that. And I'm keep thinking I'm like, "Well, what do you I" And he says, "Focus on your opponent and what he does good, what he does bad. Focus on your training." You know, he didn't get into specifics. I had to figure it out. like I couldn't think. I couldn't go in there and I could have the aggression and go in there and want to instead of the words killing him or hurting him or destroying him to beat him, to tap him out, to knock him out. Those just those words, even though those things sound almost the same, they're a little different, right? So, I had to come at my fight much differently, which made me a better fighter because now I was looking at more of the technical part of it. I was looking at, okay, this guy, he's he he's not in very good shape. He he can't go more than three rounds before he starts getting tired. Um or like he's weak on his leg kicks or that he drops his right hand. He start focusing on the technical stuff and figuring out how to go in there and break him down and beat him rather than me going in there and ripping his heart out. It's the same action. I'm literally with the same intensity, the same motivation with the fight, but my terminology and my wording and my thought process isn't about going in and hurting and destroying somebody's life. It's about going in there and breaking them down and beating them. So, you took that you took that advice. I did. Yeah. You you said earlier, a real fighter is someone who doesn't even consider failure. They just ask how. And so even when this pastor presents you with that new it's more of a metaphorical spiritual wall, you just said, "How how do I get around it?" And you found a different way to fight. It's it's like it's like I I have this gift and in my heart, in my mind, I knew that it wasn't wrong. It was God-given. I There's no way I could be this way. It was a gift. Yeah. All right. It can't be wrong. Like, it just can't be wrong. And uh and it wasn't. Um but it, you know, just like with anything in life, you you have to be able to be willing to find the answers. And they're not going to be simple. Like sometimes they're going to be very difficult. And uh and sometimes they're going to be simple like mine where it was like, "Okay, yeah, all right. I I'm not going to change uh my aggressiveness or the viciousness in the way that I go after somebody, but my mentally mindset and the way that I actually talk about it because I am supposed to be a representative and for me to go out and say I'm going to kill this dude. That's not representing other side a little bit. Yeah. Well, and at the same time, I know I'm not I don't literally mean it, but it's just like, you know, I mean, if I want to align it with with a political stuff that goes on, when you call somebody a Nazi over and over again, it's like it's like you you can't you have to word it differently. We have to be responsible. Me have to be responsible for people watching me when I profess my faith. And so, um, and I wasn't really, and to be honest, I wasn't worried about what other people were thinking, uh, but more about my soul, more about me feeling with the pastor saying that fighting is a sin. Like, like what? Like I understood what he meant right in that moment, but it was still fighting and I needed to figure out the difference. And uh that's I think that's one thing that that I've always done was that I've never never been just ready to settle on what someone tells me. Uh especially if I don't agree with it. I'm going to find an answer and uh if that answer doesn't align, then I'll accept it. But um I'm going to I'm going to always try to find something that's going to align with with how I feel and and what I believe. Okay, here's a tough question. I want you to take it easy on yourself because I think this is everyone could go too hard on themselves on this one. If we were to line all of your kids up, I think you have seven kids. Yeah. And we were to ask them what type of father is Kin Shamrock, what do you imagine they would say? Uh, that's I mean, again, I'd be because they're diff very very different and and different relationships with all of them. But I would definitely I would definitely say that they would probably say that that um that I'm I'm not 20 30 years ago, but but I'm I'm there like I'm always around, you know, especially now that I'm not fighting. I spend a lot of time uh with them and with my grandkids. But it's again, it's hard because I have different relationships even though they're all my kids, but some are near, some are far, you know, but it's skipping over the kids and the grandkids. Um, they're always wanting to come to my house. They're always wanting to be around papa. So, um, I would like to think it's kind of the same thing with my kids, you know. Um, I will say that in my career, I I did put my career first. I mean, I that was focus and determination, desire, and nothing was going to get in the way of me succeeding. Um, and my wife, um, Tanya, um, took care of the kids. She was a stay-at-home at that time. Now she works and, um, I'm home with them now. Now I do the cooking. I do, I kid you not. I do laundry. I do dishes. I do. Yes. I also smoke. I love smoking meat. I mean, I'm I'm a I'm a I'm there. I I'm there and I'm supporting her the way she supported me. Um, so, um, she would definitely tell you that, um, I'm a family very much a family man and my and that how does she put it? Um, that that that there there's that I would die for my family, that I would put myself in front of a truck to save my family. She she would tell you that. Well, I think what's amazing uh because I I have three kids also and there's two ways that you can love because I agree with the I will jump in front of a truck for my family, but that sometimes actually feels easier than showing up every day like and so the fact that you know you would both jump in front of a truck but you're there and they all want and you're present actually is pretty awesome because sometimes that's harder actually to do is to show up on a daily basis than jump in front of a truck. It it it's called responsibilities and you know obviously the earlier my career you know I I sacrificed the time with my kids um and that and and it and they'll say that hurt right there was things that went on obviously in any family but my wife was very solid and she supported me 100% and now the shoes on the other foot that she's staying at home she's working um and that I'm there. Obviously, our kids are grown, but now we have and this this just goes to show you uh that our grandkids that they do love spending time with papa is that I have two of them that are in one just graduated from high school, but one of them now is a is a junior will be a senior next year. Um they're living with us. Cool. Like they want to live with us because they get to go to a better school. Yeah. Um and uh Meyn, which is the the older one, um now she's out. She's going to uh beauty school and uh she's staying at our house, which we told her was probably wiser that you're closer, you know, and she wanted to come down and stay with us. And um she can save money, not have to worry about paying rent or food or any of that stuff. So, she's able to stay there and be able to go to her beauty school and and get her license and do all those things and put money away. And Jaden is there and um I have quite a bit the younger grandkids are always asking to come over and stay with us, you know. So, we don't have that. We sold our five-bedroom home and we moved we moved into a three-bedroom. We figured we were done raising kids and they just keep coming back. And we I don't mind. I love it. I do. We really do love it. But but yeah, I again I sacrificed early on, but now I'm making up for it, right? You know, even though I don't I don't I don't see it as I did anything wrong, right? I just see it as I made a choice and I made that choice before, you know, I started anything. and and uh and my wife came in and and uh and she really really made it work because without her it doesn't work. It can't work, right? She picked it up. So now I've been doing it now for 10 years doing it. I've been doing that. So um and and loved I don't mind doing it. Like you say, you know, it's responsibilities, but I really and I don't I don't want to be raising kids, right? Especially, you know, 5 years old. I don't want to do that no more. There's a time and place for it. It's not right now. But, but I'm, you know, I I really enjoy having that time with them. So, it's not like it's a it's a chore for me. It's enjoyable. I I love it. So, and I get to do it now. She didn't get to really even though it was fine. we love our kids, but um she did all the hard work, you know, the pampers, the diapers, and you know, the changing and all that stuff to get them where they were at to where now I'm actually doing it, but I don't have to do that even though I wouldn't have minded it. But like you said, it's a grind doing it all the time over and over again. Staying patient, being where you need to be, making sure that the discipline is is being done properly. Um, and making sure that their their their values are aligning with yours. And then as they get older, like they are in high school and all that, you're allowing them to do have their own thoughts and their own beliefs and their own way of doing things. And you have to allow for that to happen, too. Yeah, I totally agree. I you know, one of the things I was always wondering because this kind of gets into like um finances a little bit because you were in the UFC a ton and then the WWF and to me, you know, you guys are the superstars of the world and how much how many of the wrestlers uh or fighters and wrestlers were h were having financial issues while this was all going on? I I literally don't know. I was like 12 and 13. I just thought everybody was multi multi-millionaires because we're all watching you and all of these things, but I never knew how the business end worked actually. And so both in the early days of the UFC and as your time in the WWE, like what would that look like as far as like with on a broad, you know, for all the different for all the different people? Yeah, I think everybody was different. Um the hard part when you become a and and and everybody comes in differently, right? Some people come in and they've had a good life. They the parents were well, they were good schools, you know, they come in and, you know, they start making their own money and they become successful. Not all the time, but most of the time they're going to have the right people around them to make sure they make good financial decisions. Yeah. Then you get the other ones that that come in that didn't really that had good parents, but they weren't well off or financially strong and they made bad decisions and or didn't have any financial literacy. Exactly. And now all of a sudden this money comes in and the first thing that most these guys want to do is buy their mom a house. Yeah. You want to buy their mom a car and you know and then or their dad and then all of a sudden uh the brothers and the sisters and the uncles and and then you know you want to make sure that you're you're carrying the old startup kit, you know, the car watch and and chain. Um, you know, so it it it gets a lot because you're not you're not mature enough to understand the amount of money that you tr you truly have. Yeah. Um because you see a check come in and you're like, "All right." But you don't realize that that's not yours. That that is not all your money. That money, some of that money is going to be taken away. And especially being in the entertainment business, it's quite a chunk that's going to be taken away. And you don't take that into account. And so you just go on your merry way and no one's going Yeah. Uh in a year, you're going to have to pay a lot of that back. Yeah. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh yeah, I do. Okay. Well, I'll get it next time. And the next check comes in and that there just acrewed double because you had interest on top of it. And that thing now all of a sudden becomes double to where now you get a check and it's almost all gone because if you pay that off, you ain't got nothing left. And you're already accustomed to a lifestyle that in your in your in the way that you're feeling is that you don't want to go downward, which in is crazy to think that that you're going to go down to what? like you have to like only have one car and not have to wear a gold chain and a gold watch. It it is there's a lot of just a lot of misunderstanding and and not being educated enough to know uh that that it's not that much money. Yeah. So it is very similar to other professional sports because you hear about athletes all the time with and if you don't have any financial literacy it definitely slips through the fingers very quickly because you don't understand a lot of things and it's an education. I mean it's just and it makes sense if you're fighting all the time when are you going to go learn about accounting and taxes and investing and hedge funds and you know whatever. And so everybody's got a great opportunity to invest in. Yeah. like, "Oh, it's only 300,000, bro. It's easy. We're going to make triple that. Hey, where's my money?" "Oh, it didn't work out." Oh, yeah. I mean, I remember when the I think there was a documentary about Jake the Snake that came out and he had such a hard time and I loved Jake the Snake was uh he was one of my sister's favorite wrestlers and he brought out that python everything and we saw that documentary and it just broke my heart. I was like, "What? these guys aren't, you know, it it, you know, again, I was very I was very young uh when I was watching you guys, but it was kind of one of those moments. It's like, oh, right, like what's what is the status here? But if if you don't if you don't have financial advisors and you know, people even if you get financial advisors, they rip you off. Yeah. I'm not saying I'm not saying this about all of them, but I'm saying that is a big problem with agents or managers. People flock to you. Yeah. you trust them to make good decisions with your money because you don't have time to follow it, right? So, you're expecting that to happen. And so, you know, you trust them and you've been trusting him and then someone comes to you and says, "Hey, this dude's this dude's ripping you off." And you're like, "He wouldn't do that." Wow. Cuz you have built a bond with them. Like they're part of your family now. They know your wife. They know your kids. I mean, they know your mother and father. They they've eaten dinner with you. They're there. They ain't going, "No, they wouldn't do that." And then when you go to check it out, you feel almost like embarrassed to do it, but you do it and then they show you something that you have absolutely zero concept of. No, bro. I see these numbers match up. Look, it looks just like this. And you're like, "Oh, okay. Okay, cool. Yeah, all right." If you try to bring someone else to come in, like another one, to go, "Hey, can you go look over his books?" You're done. Like, you're done. You just How do you How do you explain it? I don't trust you. Well, wait a minute. you're managing my money, I should be trusting you. So, there's it's a double-edged sword. Yeah. Right. And that's where a lot of them get caught up in is they just they don't really want to have the guts to go, listen, I'm going to have somebody watch over you or at least check it to make sure you're doing the right thing. I mean, that's hard to do to say, "I don't trust you. You're my account, but I don't trust you." Like, how do you do that? Yeah. So, it is it's it's not it's it's not easy sailing. And and I think the a big problem too with how the sports industry expresses so much interest in money um and how much people are getting paid. NFL is the worst at it where they're just talking about how much and you you you don't understand someone that's making that kind of money has got a hundred people around them that are taking a chunk of that. So you look at it. Yeah. It's a lot of money, but by the time they get done with doing all of that and paying taxes and bills and things that they owe, it starts to get down real fast. And uh and especially when you get to that level of success that you in order for you, and again, I believe this is what a lot of people should be doing is that you should have a lot of people around you that are that are trying to help you become a bigger brand. um different ways besides just what you're doing, whether it's investing in, you know, stocks or whether it's investing in business or properties or homes, uh renting homes, just whatever it is to help you expand your brand. So, when you're done playing, you have a business that's still bringing you in the same or more money. Yeah. Because I think a lot of athletes don't understand that it's going to end soon, relatively speaking, in your life. you know, hopefully you live to be 70, 80, 90 years old and you're not going to be able to be a professional athlete then. And when you come out of that, what skill sets do you have? If you were to to go back to the real world, you know, not in professional sports. And so if your if your money earning capacity goes way down, you know, it's not thinking ahead, right? And yeah, that makes total sense. But if you again, like I said, there's a lot of double-edged swords there, too, because you're supposed to trust people. You bring them in and you're thinking that your money's safe, and then 10 years down the road, you're like, "Huh?" Like, no way. And then when it gets to a point to where you have to bring somebody in to check it out, it's too late. It's all gone. I think the statistic I think it's 85% of NFL players go bankrupt within four years of retiring because they have that's a lot that's well because they have people and again I this is not everyone but majority of them have people around them that just say yes to them all the time instead of saying bro don't do that like this is what's this is what's going to happen these are numbers this is what you have if you do this this is what's going to happen this is what you got left. You can't do that. Like if you do, you're going to be broke. And no one will say that. They just keep patting them on the back and saying, "Yeah, man. You're awesome." Makes me grateful for things like chat GBT because now you could actually just throw all that stuff in there and say, "Hey, is my financial advisor doing a good job?" And chat GBT will not lie to you. There's a whole lot more tools now. Absolutely. But even then, guys are so focused on and and you and again when we we talked about being laser focused and never failing and never having that come into your mind. That's the same mindset is that money isn't relevant. It's not I mean it is but in your in your if you're going to be that guy, you're going to be him. Money isn't relevant. It's right. The only thing that's relevant is you being him. Speaking of him, I know you follow the NFL really closely. Who do you think is him right now in the NFL? I think Puka Nua. Yeah, I think and and Drake London. Um both those if Drake London's on his way up doing that, right? If he has a good game today, a big game today. I I think he should be in that category with Puka Nua. Uh there's a lot of other guys that are that that are right there with Ammon St. Brown. You know, I think unfortunately Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chase just don't really have the quarterbacks right now and the defense to really help them stay relevant. So, they're in a tough spot. I think that um Jonathan Taylor is definitely making himself uh the front runner and MVP. Uh if they can continue to keep that up with um Jones being the quarterback and doing as great as he he's going to be get come back player of the year, I think. But I I think that that um I think that he has a really really good chance at being the the MVP of the year. But there, like I said, there's a lot of guys that just it used to be Justin Jefferson and Jamar Chase without a shadow of doubt. And then there was Mark, there was Mark Henry, um you know, Saquon when he went to the Eagles, he he blew up. So there was a lot of guys that that are definitely in the category of that. But I think if I was to say right now, um, the top guys would be Puka Nua and Jonathan Taylor. Now, those guys wouldn't qualify for this question because they're too focused on training most likely. Who would you like to grab a drink with out of the NFL right now? They would just be fun to hang out with. Oh, without a shadow of a doubt, George KD. Incredible. Is there anyone that you ever had a beef with that you think you should probably iron it out with before before time's up on this earth? You know, um I I did it with Dana. I called him um just tried to, you know, break because it was I I I I do not dislike Dana. I have my differences and disagreements with him, but I don't dislike him. I I I I just I'm I would say that I respect him for what he what he was able to bring the UFC to. Now, I have my other things that he does that I don't like, but that's that's just being human, right? But I don't dislike the guy. I I in fact, I respect him for what he's been able to do. Um, I would say, you know, um, I know me and Tito at one time because of the TV stuff and how I used to go after people. Um, but I've never disliked Tito. I've always been good with him. And I even called him to make sure he understood, hey, I ain't got no I mean, we're not I'm not fighting no more, man. I wish you nothing but the best of luck and congratulations. So, we put that to rest. So, I've made it a point because of my faith. Um, because it says that like you you you've got to be able to live your life without hate or having, you know, hate or towards somebody or or anger towards somebody. You want to try to make make it right. And so, I've done that. And um off the top of my head, I don't I mean, obviously, I'm sure I've had other things, but but I always try to make that point to where I'm not going to be in a situation where I have issues with people because they can easily be fixed by just talking, by just getting it out there and trying to make things right is the best you can. If someone doesn't want to, you can't do anything about that. But I've done that um especially uh at the end of my career where I had the time to be able to to reflect on my life, you know, and then some of the obligations through my faith um that I had to make right and I did those. Yeah. Okay. Let's try to get you to step on the wrong side then. How do you feel about power slap? What? I It's That's hard to watch. Um for sure. It It's just hard to watch. I don't understand the concept. I mean, I I can see the entertainment aspect of it. I I see that. But all also I can see the entertainment aspect of dog fights. Right. Totally right. Right. There's entertainment there. Right. But at what cost? Mhm. Dogs. Absolutely zero. You can't do that. You're going to go to jail. So yeah, I someone explain to me what's the difference between a dog fight and a slap fight other than dogs are competing. They both have this equal chance in slap fighting. You're getting hit and you can't move and you can't defend. And when this thing and I I don't know, but if this thing because let me break it down this way. If you were to start a business like the UFC did and when you do that, you have this five-year kind of plan of what it's going to look like, like what does it look like? How does it get better from the start to five years on on where we're going to be? And you look at it and you'd go, "Well, guys, fighters are going to get better, right? techniques and everything start developing, you know, just as we saw with striking. And I I saw that I did an interview before it ever started. I said, "Guys are going to be very skilled at striking and very skilled at grappling." And I said, "It's going to become very difficult to win at either one of those because everybody's going to be skilled." I said, "That's what we're going to see in the future." I could see it in slam fighting. The only thing I see is that nobody's getting a second shot because they're going to get so good at being able to hit the button that nobody's going to be able to get the second shot. Like it's going to be the first slap and game over. First slap wins. It's over. It's a coin toss. Unless I don't know how they change it. Maybe you can only hit him with the fingers, you know, but if you're able to hit him with the hand, right, over like there's just no way that someone that knows where to hit is going to be able. And again, I don't think anybody that is has been a world champion and has been taught how to hit the button is actually doing it. No way. Right. Because you got to get it back. Yeah. You're like a I'm I'm not letting anybody hit me. No way. Uhuh. There's going to be a repercussion. Right. Right. Um but at the same time, I I I understand the entertainment value. I really do. It's pretty brutal. But so was like I said, I talked dog fighting about sword fighting and all this. It's we're I mean people used to complain about UFC when it first came out. There was no rules. They're like, "Dude, this is crazy. It's stupid. It's not." It's like I think I think slap fighting is is is not even close to the beginning of the UFC where there were no rules because you could defend yourself. So to me, I just I don't want to bash on it. I already did, but I don't want to go too far on it, but because maybe I don't see it like maybe there's something there. I don't know. But it just for everything me as a fighter and how I understand fighting and competition and safety goes against all of it. Being in the UFC Hall of Fame, what are there any perks for being in the UFC Hall of Fame? I've never looked at it like that. I I've always looked at Well, just since you've been in it, you know, do they are you on a mailing list? Do they keep you updated on things? Do they offer tickets to fight? You know, is there any what is it? You know, what is that? Or is it just sort of an accomplishment? Not sort of, but it was an accomplishment that hits and that that's sort of there. Yeah, we I think I got a jacket. Um and a uh certificate, I believe. Um but yeah, no, nothing. There's no gathering. And if there is, I' I wasn't I I've never been there, right? I've never invited. Um, but I don't know that there's anything other than just saying, "Hey, congratulations. You're in the Hall of Fame and that's it." Right. So, but again, I'm not looking for anything. No, I mean, it's like a gold medal. What's the value of a gold medal? It's the medal. like it's an accomplishment that you have in your heart, in your mind. And you know, for me, uh it's something that I appreciate very much because it shows the appreciation um from the fans and the organization by me being in it. Uh and it's forever. Oh yeah. Well, I certainly appreciate it. Yeah. And you will always be a legend. So really appreciate it. Yeah. Yeah. Alive and dead. Alive and dead. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and like I said, I grew up I was I was a wrestler growing up and I grew up watching UFC from UFC 1. And so I watched you early days and I can't believe I get to sit in a ring with you and and also you're not going to punch me and beat me up and that's pretty awesome. So I really appreciate it. I don't think I'm punching anybody anymore. Thank goodness. Great. Yeah, I think I'm pretty content on talking. Yeah, that's right. Thanks for being here, Ken. Yeah, I appreciate this. It's been fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's been our honor. Thanks, man. Cool. All right, see you later everybody. See you guys. Bye.